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FL Survivalist's Community => Survivalist News => : The Expendable August 18, 2012, 10:37:21 AM
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Within the last few months there have been at least three incursions into American space by Russian planes and subs, some with nuclear capabilities. What are they up to? My opinion is that they are testing our readiness and detection capabilities. I'm sure the Russian's friends, the Iranians, are very interested in the results of this test. And I'm sure their friends, the North Koreans, are equally interested.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2188791/Russian-attack-submarine-slipped-past-US-Navy-patrolled-Gulf-Mexico-weeks-undetected.html?ito=feeds-newsxml (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2188791/Russian-attack-submarine-slipped-past-US-Navy-patrolled-Gulf-Mexico-weeks-undetected.html?ito=feeds-newsxml)
Russian attack submarine slipped past US Navy and patrolled Gulf of Mexico for weeks undetected
By Daily Mail Reporter
PUBLISHED: 10:54 EST, 15 August 2012 | UPDATED: 15:10 EST, 15 August 2012
A Russian attack submarine slipped into the Gulf of Mexico undetected and sailed through US strategic waters for weeks without the US Navy noticing, it was reported on Wednesday.
The US military didn't even know about the presence of the Akula-class nuclear submarine earlier this year until after it had already left the gulf, still carrying a payload of long-range missiles.
The revelation is part of a startling trend of Russian incursions as the former Cold War foe ramps up its military might under the leadership of President Vladimir Putin.
Stealthy: The Akula-class vessel is built to slip into an area undetected and destroy
American ballistic missile submarines
The Washington Free Beacon, a conservative news site, quoted anonymous military sources as saying the sub was in the gulf for a month.
The exact time frame of the vessel's presence was not clear.
'The Akula was built for one reason and one reason only: To kill US Navy ballistic missile submarines and their crews,' a source told the Beacon.
The US Navy's Atlantic submarine fleet is based at Naval Submarine Base Kings Bay on the coast of southern Georgia.
Akula-class subs are designed to run fast and quietly. They are equipped with torpedoes, mines and cruise missiles.
Russia has a fleet of nine of the vessels, which are 360 feet long and are powered by a pressurized water nuclear reactor.
Holes: The Russian sub was not far from the US Navy's Atlantic fleet based at
Naval Submarine Base Kings Bay
The last time a Russian sub was spotted this close to the US was in 2009, when a pair of the subs were discovered patrolling off the east coast.
'Sending a nuclear-propelled submarine into the Gulf of Mexico-Caribbean region is another manifestation of President Putin demonstrating that Russia is still a player on the world’s political-military stage,' Norman Polmar, a naval intelligence consultant, told the Beacon.
In June, a fleet of Russian strategic nuclear bombers conducted a training operation in the Arctic without notifying the American military.
Then, in July, a Bear H strategic bomber, capable of carrying cruise missiles, entered American airspace near California. US Air Force fighter jets had to be scrambled to meet the plane and turn it back.
'It’s a confounding situation arising from a lack of leadership in our dealings with Moscow. While the president is touting our supposed "reset" in relations with Russia, Vladimir Putin is actively working against American interests, whether it’s in Syria or here in our own backyard,' Republican Sen John Cornyn told the Beacon.
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I just read another article (http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htsub/articles/20120817.aspx (http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htsub/articles/20120817.aspx)) that suggested this entire story was fabricated in an attempt to get more funding. The article also noted that the Russians did nothing wrong by patrolling in the international waters of the Gulf.
It seems to me that if the Russians did nothing wrong by patrolling the Gulf, then the story was not made up. I mean, either the sub was there or it wasn't, right? And to me, the issue is not whether or not the Russians did anything wrong... they didn't. The issue is whether they can slip so close to our shores undetected. If the story is true, then the Russians should be thanked for bringing this deficiency to our attention.
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I just read another article (http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htsub/articles/20120817.aspx (http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htsub/articles/20120817.aspx)) that suggested this entire story was fabricated in an attempt to get more funding. The article also noted that the Russians did nothing wrong by patrolling in the international waters of the Gulf.
It seems to me that if the Russians did nothing wrong by patrolling the Gulf, then the story was not made up. I mean, either the sub was there or it wasn't, right? And to me, the issue is not whether or not the Russians did anything wrong... they didn't. The issue is whether they can slip so close to our shores undetected. If the story is true, then the Russians should be thanked for bringing this deficiency to our attention.
Yarp. Good story.
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Great Post! Thanks Ex. My fear is that if the Russians can slip into the gulf, then so can the Iranians. The threat of an EMP detonation from a missile fired from the gulf IS a real threat. I have no idea what our missile defense capabilities are in the gulf region, but I hope they are strong.
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Wing, a missile fired from a sub just off New Orleans would be over American soil within a minute. It would reach middle America within ten minutes. I don't know if we even have anti-missile batteries positioned in that area of the country. I don't know if we have them anywhere along the Gulf coast. If we do, I don't know if they are automatically fired when an incoming missile is detected, or do they need human authorization to launch. What is our reaction time? I have no idea, but I agree with your statement about an EMP attack from the Gulf. It is a real possibility.
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My point exactly. I am not sure if they keep Patriot missiles at the ready along the gulf nor how rapid the chain of command response would be. But such a thing would cripple the civil command, control and communication structure and leave our population in the dark... So yea, I think an undetected sub in the gulf is a "big deal".
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EX your right we dont have ABM's staged aorund the gulf coast maybe in Ca and around the dc area... One thing about this sub it was detected while egressing the gulf region and standard mission protocall for Ballistics is one leaves when you get relived from duty station... the Russians have again started the cold war stuff with the TU-95 bears that were intercepted in US airspace in Alaska and now this ballistic sub...
Talked to a friend of mine at work who was ASW in the Navy and he said pretty interesting they would put a Ballistic sub there because when you prob a countries defiance capabilities you send in an attack type sub... fast in and out if you have to... A ballistic is sit and wait for the command.... period.... no screwing around with that class of sub...
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Well, the only defense the U.S. has is somewhat obscure and its against ballastic, long range. Patriots are not normally in position waiting for incoming. I'm not sure why Kings Bay was even mentioned here...Kings Bay and its operating area is North of Jacksonville down to the Cape Canaveral area. The Gulf of Mexico is a different operating area with different defenses assigned.
To me, this is not big news...they've been doing this for years.
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I'm going out in the Gulf and play hip hop music very loud until they are driven out of the area. I just haven't figured out how to outlast them. On a serious note, I think that probes are serious, but if Russia decides to attack us, there is no way we can fend of the attack without taking serious hits! We can fight back, we can win, but that wont be much consolation to the people in the cities that get nuked. It would put all of us back into the dark ages...
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Don't forget, this is a nuclear attack sub they are talking about, not a missile boat. It may have nuclear cruise missile, they would not be able to get to an altitude that would create a continental EMP strike. A low level, localized EMP, yes. Now the idea of an Iranian boomer is a much more credible threat, but I would doubt that they have any boomers as all of the Russian missile boats are accounted for. And I haven't heard of any Chinese boats being handed over to anyone else, not even the North Koreans.
FLPrepper
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I didn't think the Akula class subs had long-range nukes on board, at least not according to the article. The Akula subs are designed as stealthy sub killers, right? This would not be the weapon of choice if the Russians wanted to launch an EMP attack against the US, would it? Like FLPrepper said, this is a nuclear attack sub, meaning it is powered by nuclear energy, not that it contains any nuclear weapons.
I still think this was a test of our detection capabilities. The only question I have is how did this story ever come to light? I mean, if we didn't detect the sub while it was patrolling the Gulf, how do we know it was there in the first place?
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Well, the only defense the U.S. has is somewhat obscure and its against ballastic, long range. Patriots are not normally in position waiting for incoming. I'm not sure why Kings Bay was even mentioned here...Kings Bay and its operating area is North of Jacksonville down to the Cape Canaveral area. The Gulf of Mexico is a different operating area with different defenses assigned.
To me, this is not big news...they've been doing this for years.
SS--why didn't you stop them when you had the chance!? :P
You need to build that little sub and go for a ride ^-^
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I'm going out in the Gulf and play hip hop music very loud until they are driven out of the area. I just haven't figured out how to outlast them. On a serious note, I think that probes are serious, but if Russia decides to attack us, there is no way we can fend of the attack without taking serious hits! We can fight back, we can win, but that wont be much consolation to the people in the cities that get nuked. It would put all of us back into the dark ages...
Really awesome headphones and lots of valium?
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ORIGINAL STORY LINK:
http://freebeacon.com/silent-running/
****UPDATE****
AlertsUSA Threat Journal - Russian Submarine in the Gulf of Mexico? - August 20, 2012
Russian Submarine in the
Gulf of Mexico? Senator Demands Explanation from Pentagon
August 19, 2012
According to the original report by longtime military correspondent Bill Gertz:
"A Russian nuclear-powered attack submarine armed with long-range cruise missiles operated undetected in the Gulf of Mexico for several weeks and its travel in strategic U.S. waters was only confirmed after it left the region, the Washington Free Beacon has learned.
It is only the second time since 2009 that a Russian attack submarine has patrolled so close to U.S. shores.
The stealth underwater incursion in the Gulf took place at the same time Russian strategic bombers made incursions into restricted U.S. airspace near Alaska and California in June and July, and highlights a growing military assertiveness by Moscow."
While the MSM has almost completely ignored the story, Senator John Cornyn (R-TX) sent a letter to Navy officials at the Pentagon officials demanding answers. The full text of the letter is as follows:
Dear Admiral Greenert:
According to press reports, a Russian nuclear-powered attack submarine recently traveled undetected in the Gulf of Mexico on a month-long patrol. This submarine activity reportedly occurred in June and July, simultaneously with incursions by Russian strategic bombers into restricted U.S. airspace.
If these reports are accurate, the repercussions are serious. It is my understanding that an Akula-class submarine can be armed with an array of weapons, including torpedoes and long-range cruise missiles, capable of destroying both U.S. nuclear submarines and aircraft carriers.
The submarine patrol, taken together with the air incursions, seems to represent a more aggressive and destabilizing Russian military stance that could pose risks to our national security. This is especially troubling given the drastic defense cuts sought by President Obama, which include reductions in funding for antisubmarine defense systems.
In light of the gravity of this situation, I request a detailed explanation of the facts surrounding these reports. Thank you for your faithful service to our nation, your dedication to our Armed Forces, and your commitment to ensuring the welfare of our men and women in uniform and their families.
LINK TO VIDEO
http://blog.chron.com/txpotomac/2012/08/red-october-redux-john-cornyn-demands-answers-from-pentagon-on-russian-sub-in-gulf/
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Good question, did not detect yet know we say it happened. Something on the lighter side of thisa ge old game of probing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mixl3DFVnKE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mixl3DFVnKE)
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Hi
I agree with Sunspot on this, not a big deal. When I was working DEW line in 1979 we had over 400 incursions of BEAR bombers into NATO airspace, They would fly right up to the edge, cross over a bit than dart back. Of course F-4's would be scrambled and it became kind of a game. Ditto Sub probings. I worked at a small SOSUS site in Iceland also and they were always trying to sneek past the Iceland/Faroe Island gap.
I'm sure we have our subs off the coasts of Russia and China right now.
This was just their way to let us know that they are also off ours. If they didn't want us to know they would have sliped in and out without notice (which I'm sure they have done many times anyway). No biggie
Rgds
nonrev
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Now this is something to be concerned about. A Chinese sub got into the middle of a Fleet battle group undetected.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-492804/The-uninvited-guest-Chinese-sub-pops-middle-U-S-Navy-exercise-leaving-military-chiefs-red-faced.html
Rgds
nonrev
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nonrev to a certain degree you and shadow are right but you have to remember since the great east west wall came tumbling down the ruskies have been fairly quite... but the last couple of years they are starting to revamp the cold war incursions... a lot has changed since 1979.. no matter how much time has passed tho the things that have been constant in our life times seem to be coming back... something to think about...
i do know for a fact that we as a nation have been sending the new attack ssn's sea wolf class subs into the south china sea to keep check and get signatures on the new chinese attack and boomer class subs exiting the south china sea so seems the cold war is back on...
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We are fools to dismiss the Russians. They cannot be trusted.
In a speech to the Lenin School for Political Warfare in Moscow in the 1930s, Dimitri Manuilski declared, "War to the hilt between communism and capitalism is inevitable. But today we are too weak to strike. Our day will come in 30-40 years. But first we must lull the capitalist nations to sleep with the greatest overtures of peace and disarmament known throughout history. And then, when their guard is dropped, we will smash them with our clenched fist."
In November 1987, Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev stated in a speech to the Politburo: "Gentlemen, Comrades, do not be concerned about all you hear about glasnost and perestroika and democracy in the coming years. These are primarily for outward consumption. There will be no significant internal change within the Soviet Union, other than for cosmetic purposes. Our purpose is to disarm the Americans and to let them fall asleep."
Soviet Russia's nuclear missile power and Red China's immense manpower have been joined into one clenched fist which forms the heart of the New Axis, which could also be called the Moscow-Beijing Axis. Richard Maybury coined the term New Axis in 1996. It is not limited to Russia and China who signed the Chinese-Russian Friendship Treaty in July 2001 and openly declared their joint strategic interests against the United States, but it also includes many other nations that have entered into a secret alliance against the United States and its NATO allies. Maybury explains in the February 2003 issue of the Early Warning Report that, "the group consists of at least 12 members," among them Iran, Iraq, North Korea, Syria, Lybia, Cuba, etc.
The U.S. government is aware of the existence of the New Axis: On October 10, 2002, Deputy Secretary of Defense, Paul Wolfowitz said, "The thing that came to all of us on the Rumsfeld Commission, the greatest surprise, is to understand just how much these bad actors [New Axis states] were helping one another, and moreover how much help was coming from Russia and China."
The New Axis has the United States and its allies severely outgunned and out-manned. It is the plan of the New Axis to involve the United States in multiple wars with the smaller Axis members: first in Afghanistan, then Iraq, then possibly Iran and Korea and then possibly also with China over Taiwan. They intend to overextend and deplete our armed forces, then they will strike with a massive Blitzkrieg against the European nations and North America. This will be only the beginning of The Great Chastisement.
Source- FATIMA: The Impending Great Chastisement Revealed in the Third Secret of Fatima
by Fr. Paul Kramer, B.Ph., S.T.B., M. Div., S.T.L.
The Russians and Chinese have a great long game, and are very astute students of Sun Tzu's "The Art of War".
"All warfare is based on deception."
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Now this is something to be concerned about. A Chinese sub got into the middle of a Fleet battle group undetected.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-492804/The-uninvited-guest-Chinese-sub-pops-middle-U-S-Navy-exercise-leaving-military-chiefs-red-faced.html
Rgds
nonrev
Holy crap, nonrev! We can't detect the Russians, we can't detect the Chinese... I thought we were a superpower. What the heck? Can we detect the North Koreans or the Iranians?
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21 years in military. Not a sub guy. Akula is not a boomer and can't fire nukes, other than anti sub torpedoes. It kills other subs. Not believing it could it make it there without a sub resupply ship.
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21 years in military. Not a sub guy. Akula is not a boomer and can't fire nukes, other than anti sub torpedoes. It kills other subs. Not believing it could it make it there without a sub resupply ship.
Correct me if I am wrong, but being a nuclear sub, couldn't it stay submerged and underway for months at a time if it needed to? The only supplies that would restrict them is provisions for the crew, and I'm sure they carry enough for a mission of some duration.
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The Akula dosnt need a tender or resupply ship it's operating range is pertty close to the US LA Class attack subs which are nuke powered and under water operational for up to six months... they would only have to resupply often based on munition expendentures...
The Akula is quite capable of gunning as well as running. Armed with four 533mm and four 650mm torpedo tubes, Akula deploys twice as much ordnance as the Los Angeles class. Loadout consists of twenty SET 53 torpedoes, four SS-N-21 nuclear cruise missiles, four SS-N-15 nuclear torpedoes, and ten ultra-heavyweight SET 65 ASUW torpedoes. Both the SET 53 and SET 65 torpedoes are wireguided and possess active, passive, and wake-homing capabilities. The SET 65 pack a 900kg punch, enough to take out a carrier with one unit.
Significant modifications were made to the original Project 971 Akula design beginning with the fifth unit. Classified as "Akula II", these modifications include a four-meter extension that may accommodate VLS tubes and advanced technology sensors.
LINK:http://www.subsim.com/ssr/akula2.html
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Yes being a nuke it would only be limited to food stores on board. That said, the Russians don't have a great history of maintence or training. Possible yes. Probable, I don't think so.
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Yes being a nuke it would only be limited to food stores on board. That said, the Russians don't have a great history of maintence or training. Possible yes. Probable, I don't think so.
have to agree with you here.. the russians are still useing the old centeralized command and control structer for their military that they used during the cold war.. killing any free thinking officers or noncoms.. of course as in any military you are going to have your free thinkers that are just guiness....
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well an interesting thing came out on the russian attack sub patroling in the gulf... found this artical today...
Link:http://spectator.org/archives/2012/09/21/the-silent-threat
The Silent Threat
By PETER HANNAFORD on 9.21.12 @ 6:07AM
The U.S. remains woefully undefended from missile attack. Will JLENS survive sequestration?
Riots over the Middle East and South Asia get everyone's attention, but a clear and present danger to the United States homeland exists that virtually no one is talking about and for which we have no defense: missile attack.
A Russian military officials says the recent covert visit of one of their submarines to the Gulf of Mexico proves that they could, without difficulty, launch a missile high over the U.S. that could trigger the explosion of an Electro-Magnetic Pulse (EMP) bomb that would shut down virtually all electrical and electronic activity in a large swath of the nation. There would be no radiation, no deaths -- "only" economic paralysis and chaos.
Add Iran and North Korea to the list of potential launchers of such a weapon.
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I can tell you part of the reason the sub got in. In their (politicians) infinite wisdom, the sea borne sub killer squadrons were decommissioned and done away with in the mid 2000's against the Navy's wishes to save money. I was in three of those squadrons during parts of my 30 years in the Navy and nothing ever got by us when we were patrolling off of the Carriers. Now they rely on helos that don't have anywhere near the range or depth needed along with being over tasked with angel missions and supply/ ferry missions or shore based P-3s that can't be there 24/7 (cost, crew rest and numbers) like the S-3B could.
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Hi,
Not sure thats true about the US having no Hunter/killer type attack subs. According to the Navy web page they have three classes of attack subs.
"Description
Attack submarines are designed to seek and destroy enemy submarines and surface ships; project power ashore with Tomahawk cruise missiles and Special Operation Forces; carry out Intelligence, Surveillance, and Reconnaissance (ISR) missions; support battle group operations, and engage in mine warfare.
http://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_display.asp?cid=4100&tid=100&ct=4
1. Los Angles class
2. Seawolf class
3. Next generation, being built now. Virginia Class... "The Navy is now building the next-generation attack submarine, the Virginia (SSN 774) class. The Virginia class is tailored to excel in a wide range of warfighting missions."
Does seem like the subs are multi-role though, but hunter killer is one of the roles.
Note: How would you know or not if any Enemy subs got by you. The only ones you know of are the ones you caught, not the ones that might have sneeked by..... If it sneeks by, by definition, you wouldn't know about it.... sneek like this...
"The uninvited guest: Chinese sub pops up in middle of U.S. Navy exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced"
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-492804/The-uninvited-guest-Chinese-sub-pops-middle-U-S-Navy-exercise-leaving-military-chiefs-red-faced.html
Rgds
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Ballistic Missile Defense
I just came of from working on this Navy ship, The SBX-1 (Sea based X-Band Radar). It was designed and developed for the very purpose of detecting and tracking Ballistic Missiles in mid flight during the accent stage.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea-based_X-band_Radar
It was active for approx 7 years. It just went modified ROS (Reserve Operating Status) about 10 days ago. I can't say much about the tests or the results but I will say they are priortizing and exploring different avenues for detecting misslies fired at the US from shorter ranges.
I will also say that I wouldn't trust Boeing to organize my daughters birthday party without screwing it up! They would form countless committies and have endless daily meetings and catchy slogans and programs on every aspect of the design, operation and function of wearing of birthday hats but than overlook send out the inventations... ha!
Rgds
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hey nonrev i agree with you that the navy does have attack killer subs and they are developing the newer gen class sub but what prepper is talking about is the disappearance of the SA-3 type sub killers aircraft carrier based.. they are relying on the land based airborne asw assets more instead of the carrier based asw equipment... which in essence should have picked up the sub in the gulf but missed it.. because we have no navel surface groups anywhere near our coasts just coast guard and i don't believe they are equipted to deal with subs....
the Russian who ever said they could have easily launched a missile from that position was on the mark we have nothing in place to deter a sub that close to our shores launching a missile
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Hi,
Not sure thats true about the US having no Hunter/killer type attack subs. According to the Navy web page they have three classes of attack subs.
As Bum said, I am talking about Carrier borne aircraft, not subs. Sorry if I wasn't clear about that, I sometimes assume others know that
S-3Bs are ASW (anti submarine warfare) aircraft. I should have been more clear.
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Rgr,
I remember when I was in the Air Force in Iceland in the late 70's (remote location) and sometimes US or Russian bouys would be found on the beaches. Pretty cool
Rgds
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Add Iran and North Korea to the list of potential launchers of such a weapon.
Iran and North Korea only have diesel-electric boats for AWS and attacking shipping. Unlike nuclear subs, diesels are fairly noisy and easy to detect. Only the Iranian subs could possibly launch any kind of missile and those would be short-range antiship missles. Nothing close to the capability needed for a large-scale EMP attack on the US.
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Add Iran and North Korea to the list of potential launchers of such a weapon.
Iran and North Korea only have diesel-electric boats for AWS and attacking shipping. Unlike nuclear subs, diesels are fairly noisy and easy to detect. Only the Iranian subs could possibly launch any kind of missile and those would be short-range antiship missles. Nothing close to the capability needed for a large-scale EMP attack on the US.
all tho what you said is true as far as a threat goes from those two countries it would be more likely a dirty bomb from somebody who snuck in thru the border...
Only thing is this was a russian sub and after the incident a russian admiral made the comment about an emp because they got so close to the mainland... N korea and Iran would more than likely be a greater threat after an intial attak from somebody like russia or china...
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An EMP attack on the US does not need to be 'large scale'...one good sized explosion over the middle of the US at altitude and our grid is done almost from seaboard to seaboard. :(
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An EMP attack on the US does not need to be 'large scale'...one good sized explosion over the middle of the US at altitude and our grid is done almost from seaboard to seaboard. :(
Bumbury was speaking specifically of Iran or N. Korea launching an EMP attack. I was addressing the the fact that those countries do not have a launch platform for such an attack. Russia or China do have the capability, but given their economic relationships with the US, I don't see how they would benefit from such an act.
To boost a large enough nuclear device to a sufficient altitude over the middle of the country - say, 500 miles inland and 200 miles up - would take a pretty sizable missile. That requires a good bit of support to accomplish...
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Gotcha... :)