FL Survival / A Survival Community
General Forum => General Discussion => : -> Bear August 11, 2013, 09:13:29 AM
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If a EMP hit and you didn't have a ride protected. Would a lawn mower, gas golf cart, go carts, or a moped work?
I know as a last resort a bicycle with a make shift trailer would work. I understand a "50's" car may "survive". But what else? What is your ideas on a quick ride out of dodge? I don't want to rely on a horse or donkey.
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You can pretty much figure anything that does not have a computer in it will work.
Build a Dune Buggy, and you are probably good... Except the power windows might not work ;)
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Here is a pretty extensive article on EMP and Vehicles.
http://www.futurescience.com/emp/vehicles.html
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Since an EMP big enough to impact vehicles would require a nuclear weapon detonated above the area I don't think my main worry is what I'm going to drive.
I belive the parameters for an EMP that would affect the whole continental US requires the nuclear weapon to be detonated over Kansas at an altitude of 300 miles.
The more realistic scenario is a huge sunburst frying transformers in the electrical grid. Since these huge transformers are custom made, one at a time, and there's no backstock, this would be catastrophic.
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I will saddle up my horse and ride ! 8)
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I will saddle up my horse and ride ! 8)
You too? ;)
We have three. All rescues.
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I'd read the White Sand's testing while investigating everything I could on the net relating to EMP. The auto manufacturers took their submittal wrapped in brown paper (concerns over industrial secrets) and when it was over, no one would relay how theirs faired after the test. Other than generic info relayed in the final report.
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Yep the science isnt very exact on the effect of an emp on vehicles even the military isnt sure what an emp would do to their vehicles even tho they are emp proof... even s super emp has variable effect or issues that wont be consisant with the theory of total destruction... reality is nobody really knows.. so my answer to your question is whatever starts or rolls.. i have pdf plans on building a bamboo carriage to attach to a bike so im thinking that direction for worst case scenerio
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From my understanding - if you have an iron or non-ferrous metal box anything in it will survive EMP shot - Im not sure if its the starter or starter relay - one of those 2 will work to restart a car if an emp pulse hits but u have to replace the old one - or keep battery cables off batterys til you need to drive - either way thats what I would start with - Im betting they have short ranged emp bombs or a cannon of sorts to shut down small areas-not sure
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Might have to drive my chevroLEGS. Theres been a couple studies that have found that anything grounded that isnt running should be fine though.
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I will saddle up my horse and ride ! 8)
You too? ;)
We have three. All rescues.
Cool!
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Might have to drive my chevroLEGS. Theres been a couple studies that have found that anything grounded that isnt running should be fine though.
yep thats what i read.. even the speculation is that cars are grounded too thats why when they take a direct hit by lightning....
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My garage is , in effect, a Faraday cage so Ill most likely keep driving my beater....until the gas run out.
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My garage is , in effect, a Faraday cage so Ill most likely keep driving my beater....until the gas run out.
Keep eating those beans, you will never run out of gas..............................
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My garage is , in effect, a Faraday cage so Ill most likely keep driving my beater....until the gas run out.
Download the FEMA info on wood gasifiers. As long as you have an axe, you'll never run out of fuel for your beater... ;)
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Speaking of EMP's ... what about the electronic lock on a safe? I've been told any EMP that would knock one out would also kill me, making it a moot point, but I'm not sure I believe that. Anybody know for sure?
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Speaking of EMP's ... what about the electronic lock on a safe? I've been told any EMP that would knock one out would also kill me, making it a moot point, but I'm not sure I believe that. Anybody know for sure?
I have a pacemaker so this is something I was worried about. In my research, I've read white papers that go both ways. :o Some say it will be fried, some say it will not be effected. The one I have is microwave safe, so I'm hoping it will be the later. ::fb ::cj
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Revisiting the old topic, would watches be included to shutdown?
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My kid's minibike should be fully functional. Don't laugh, it's running a new 3.5 hp Briggs, knobby tires, and heavy duty clutch, sprockets and chain. That thing will climb trees even with my big butt on it and run 35 mph on the flat. It's a lot of fun. I'd call it a poor man's bug out bike.
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Does sound fun. Where may I look at one?
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Think of emp as a radio station.
You got your AM and FM. FM is short range high frequency. AM is long range low frequency.
The emp from the radio tower hits your radio antenna and sets up a wave in it that the amp boosts to power the speaker.
If the antenna is down no signal; if it is up signal. Same for emp - if the antenna is up a stronger pulse is generated.
That is because the longer the conductor the stronger the pulse that is generated. A long power line generates a stronger current than a short piece of wire. However with the fine "wires" in a solid state device even a small current will fry the device.
Any kind of wire exposed to the pulse will generate a current regardless of if it is hooked up to anything - however any device plugged to a grid hit by a massive emp will be fried by the thousands of volts that blast through the power lines.
A faraday cage must be capable of absorbing nearly all the emp to protect devices inside it.
Emp isn't like a lightning strike. it is like a giant magnet that sets up a magnetic field - it doesn't pump out current it causes a current in metal objects in the field. So a metal shed really won't stop an emp.
Keep in mind that a wire with a current running through it sets up a magnetic field. so any wire carrying the blast of current from an emp will emit an emp as well.
Again an emp is both FM and AM - there is a high frequency pulse that is blocked or absorbed by large objects - but there is also a low frequency pulse that like AM travels over the horizon and can penetrate solid objects. The "FM" pulse has to be above the horizon (visible) to hit your metal.
However it too can reach over the horizon travelling through power lines.
Vehicles that are running will get a bigger hit than non-running vehicles. The more wiring it has the bigger the hit - the closer to a power line the bigger the hit.
So what will run?
My diesel tractor. It hits 30 on the highway and has no electronic ignition - runs a long time on a gallon too. Get it on a slope and pop the clutch waroooom.
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My kid's minibike should be fully functional. Don't laugh, it's running a new 3.5 hp Briggs, knobby tires, and heavy duty clutch, sprockets and chain. That thing will climb trees even with my big butt on it and run 35 mph on the flat. It's a lot of fun. I'd call it a poor man's bug out bike.
If it's one like Tractor Supply sells it probably would still run - but keep a replacement set of wiring for it and it's a sure thing - spark plug backup too.
Just keeping the sparkplug wire off when it isn't running would likely stop an emp shorting too.
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Anthony is correct. It's called a Dirt Bug. But the stock engine is crap. I replaced it with a new Briggs, upgraded the clutch and chain and it's good to go. We've experimented with a small hitch behind the seat to pull my deer cart. Worked great. I'd also suggest putting tubes in the tires as the stock version is tubeless and the bead pulled open after just a few days.
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Anthony, captain Ret. Thanks for the comments...
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Yep, my diesel tractor will run, if the starter works, or I can get it hand cranked. no hills for me to roll it down. The only electrical system on it is the starter and alternator.
Otherwise, I have a few bicycles.
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Build a wood ramp and pull the tractor up on it with a comealong.
Release the brake and let her roll.
Back her up on the ramp when you're done.
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Wen I get "comfortable"(don't shatter my dreams) I plan on buying an old '51 Ford F1 and restoring it to mostly(non-original seat padding) original condition. Now since that is a decade or more away I'll just have to use the a fore mentioned bicycle.
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A lot of people believe that since vehicles on Johnston Island survived the emp of HA shots that older vehicles generally do.
This hasn't been verified to my knowledge - there is an area directly under a HA shot that is emp free.
The only HA shots over land were by the Soviets and those wreaked havoc on their supposedly stronger, more primitive electrics.
I believe the only IC engines that will survive a HA emp are mechanical diesels and pull start gas engines.
In fact I keep my PV panels and their electrics packed away - PV systems that are grid connected will receive the blast pulse that goes through a grid during an emp.
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I really don't know what to believe about EMP affecting vehicles anymore. I have seen two shows about EMP, one on the Discovery channel and one on the Science channel, where they created EMP bursts to see how they affected running modern cars driving under the test rig. On one show, the burst caused the cars electronics to be fried. On the other, it caused the engine to shut off, but after coasting to a stop, they were able to restart the engine. Both shows said that the test represented worst case scenarios. So, which do you believe? As for me, I will just have to wait and see.
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Only thing I can think of would be different designs of vehicle used.
I'm certain emp would wreck the US power grid, but vehicles might not be so uniform.
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Both shows used ex police Crown Vics. One was a black and white, like LAPD, and the other was plain white. Both still sported the pillar mounted spotlights.
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Now that is odd - same vehicles should have had the same result.
Then again in the Johnston Island tests aircraft had their navcom knocked out but not the engines - all the planes in the air should have gone down but none did.
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It just goes to show that the real effects of an EMP are not completely known. I hope we never have to find out what would really happen, but I feel we will sooner or later.
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The US grid is basically a giant antenna and would take a massive thump - the HF (more like UHF) would get above ground lines and the LF pulse would get buried lines. The HF pulse is so fast it gets past surge protectors.
Airliners would lose their navcom even if their engines survive and be flying blind - forget about any night or instrument landings.
Imagine you're driving and the power steering and brakes go out as you're coming to a busy intersection.
Trains would just coast to a stop - rail transport would probably come out pretty well.
What they do know about is bad enough.
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I wouldn't trust passenger aircraft. All modern airliners use a digital engine control system, even fuel flow is controlled by the onboard computer system. Nav, comm, engines are all digital.
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I wouldn't trust passenger aircraft. All modern airliners use a digital engine control system, even fuel flow is controlled by the onboard computer system. Nav, comm, engines are all digital.
have to agree here even tho they have wire back ups the aircraft are to large to handle manually... case in point the United DC10 in souix city crash landing... back in the 90's... now they'v just gotten bigger...
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Old useable restored Military Planes, used in air shows, an promotions, an military Buffs. Maybe Korea aged helicopter's blimps, hot air balloon's zip lines. Model A's old Army motorcycles maybe 50's an earlier including others, bike builders should still have jobs. Go carts and a hitch w trailer an a pull start brigs an straten. Things may work. First month imo will SUCK!! Then gas will get hard to get in 2/3 months imo. A solar powered trike bike may be the way to go..
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iv read reports that really nobody knows what would or wouldn't run after an emp.. their could be a good possibility that alot of cars would still be running directly after an emp.. the last federal study done in the late 90's questioned the idea that ALL vehicles would be out of service because of circumstances surrounding each vehicle... so the idea of the movies where everything just stops is a fallacy..
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Bum, I do know that the 1980's and 90's Ford computers had what was called Limp Home Mode. If the computer crashed, the vehicle would still run and drive, although not all that well.
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What I tell my people is that if they are driving when an EMP hits, coast to a stop. Turn off the car for five minutes and try to restart it. If it doesn't restart, unhook the battery cables for five minutes, reconnect them and try to start it again. Like others have mentioned, the report written in 2001 for the Congressional EMP Commission showed that not all late model cars would be affected. Of those that did shut down, many of them were able to be restarted after a few minutes. Some others had the check engine light come on, but were perfectly drivable. But really, we won't know for sure until it happens.
As for a steel shed or a washing machine being used as a Faraday cage, I have my doubts. I did an experiment a couple of years ago and posted the results here: http://www.flsurvival.com/index.php?topic=9523.msg99986#msg99986 (http://www.flsurvival.com/index.php?topic=9523.msg99986#msg99986). Based on my own experiments, and reports I have read elsewhere, I believe an effective Faraday cage must be constructed of a non-ferrous (i.e. non-magnetic) metal. Copper would be the best, but a cheap and effective material would be aluminum. I show how I made the small Faraday cage that I keep my flash drives and external hard drive in here: http://www.flsurvival.com/index.php?topic=603.msg3131#msg3131 (http://www.flsurvival.com/index.php?topic=603.msg3131#msg3131). Because I don't know 100% that this will work, I keep my Faraday cage inside a steel safe.
Some people claim that a steel garbage can could be an effective Faraday cage. It won't work. Try it for yourself. Put your cell phone inside and call it. If your phone rings, cell signals are getting through. If cell signals are getting through, gamma rays will likely get through as well.
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Bum, I do know that the 1980's and 90's Ford computers had what was called Limp Home Mode. If the computer crashed, the vehicle would still run and drive, although not all that well.
RPD i think i read somewhere that most cars have some type of residual back up system to limp home.. believe it or not the security systems on the cars will be the things that will keep the cars from coming back to life... because alot of the high tec ones will over ride the computer system and keep it shut down.. my sons chevy s10 2003 had just this type of system and the alarm tech when we finally figured out the system was the problem told us the newer systems are set up to do just that in an emergancy situation or some type of glitch in the alarm system will keep the car from starting... even with the correct key in the ignition... one thing for sure i do believe an EMP will fry most of the alarms in the newer an older cars so that will be an interesting subject in of itself...
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Wrench, isn't that gonna be a bit noisy and attract unwanted attention? Or do you have a way to significantly quiet the sound?
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"...a bit noisy..."
Gawd, you people are never satisfied. Ask for a vehicle that'll run after an EMP/Coronal Ejection and I give you one. Pick, pick, pick... ;)
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"...a bit noisy..."
Gawd, you people are never satisfied. Ask for a vehicle that'll run after an EMP/Coronal Ejection and I give you one. Pick, pick, pick... ;)
pick me pick i wont one...
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"...a bit noisy..."
Gawd, you people are never satisfied. Ask for a vehicle that'll run after an EMP/Coronal Ejection and I give you one. Pick, pick, pick... ;)
I'll take it no complaints I promise!!!!!!!!!!!
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Here you go... nice and quiet... well, except for the occasional "yabba dabbo doo!"
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Should my main truck not drive, I'd use my old muscle car but the mileage aint very good ::) , Next would be my old reliable 1956 7.5 Evinrude. I do have a carburated larger boat, not sure if that'll run. Worst case, bicycle!
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Best choice so far..IMHO...I want one TOO!!!!LOL....Nice Ride
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I'll never look at a VW Bug the same way again...
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My wife wants a cutesy little one. I should show her this pic and tell her that it's this or nothing.....
********** several levels of humor at work there........ me "telling her" how it will be might be the funniest.
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That's a pretty cool bug. That yours bender?
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Top 10 Vehicles For Your EMP Survival
-http://www.survivopedia.com/best-emp-bug-out-vehicles/
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Top 10 Vehicles For Your EMP Survival
-http://www.survivopedia.com/best-emp-bug-out-vehicles/
I dig that link i wish I had some extra money so I can buy one of the available options, plus give me a fun project to work on
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I agree ptajay.
I have basic mechanics knowledge imo. An I would love having a little project that would give me a heck of a post emp ride, as well. Know some of what makes a car/truck tick but I would be fond of winging it, learning, an getting something going.
Maybe I should look at getting a pull start 2 wheel, "mini bike" make it into a trike, add a roof, an some up.armor ???
Lack so many funds to play around with. If I could only hit the big lottery!!!!! :)
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That's a pretty cool bug. That yours bender?
I wish!
Unfortunately, it's just a pic I googled. :'(
I have had Bugs before, and they're great-running, easily-maintained vehicles. I've been toying with the idea of getting another one, but the wife would probably veto that due to a lack of air-conditioning... ;)
So I'm stuck with my 2009 Nissan Frontier (pretty good hauler for "over the fields and thru the woods") with an old Schwinn as a backup vehicle in case of EMPs... :-\
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Bender, don't you sorta have access to military equipment? If emp strikes take something of theres... doubt they would miss it :)