FL Survival / A Survival Community
General Forum => General Discussion => : SwampYankee85 October 08, 2015, 10:39:08 AM
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Wondering what you guys think about this so far.
http://www.wtsp.com/story/news/local/florida/2015/10/06/house-committee-approves-bill-allow-open-carry-guns/73452886/
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Possible but doubtful... the "Mouse" is against it.
Besides, its still permission slip carry, not Constitutional carry.
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Possible...
Knock an the door may could be opened.
You dont knock, it may not open.....
I would like it to pass.
If so I could carry outside the waistband, seen or printing like no tomorrow without a care .
An if it would pass I would think more on getting a RIA 45 cal 1911, & attempt toting that. :-)
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I'd rather have carry on campus than open carry.
If this passes I will still conceal, not really interested in attracting unwanted attention.
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Would like to see it happen. I will still conceal carry but not feel so "secretive" about it at that point.
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The reason given for this is so that those with a CWP wouldn't be arrested for brandishing a weapon if someone saw their weapon. Yes I'd like to see it passed so I wouldn't have to worry about being busted by some zealot with an ax to grind.
Native you are right it isn't Constitutional carry, but it is a step in the right direction, don't you think?
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I think it's a step in the right direction. Who was it that said "An armed society is a polite society."?
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I think it's a step in the right direction. Who was it that said "An armed society is a polite society."?
Agreed, but, I don't want people in Walmart with a drop leg holster and an AR over there shoulder.....
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I think it's a step in the right direction. Who was it that said "An armed society is a polite society."?
Agreed, but, I don't want people in Walmart with a drop leg holster and an AR over there shoulder.....
I do. Why not them?
Of course........ I work with people that wear western revolvers on their hips while they work their cattle. These are the same people that come into walmart in nasty dirty jeans and torn shirts.
They drive old trucks and look almost homeless. But they are also loyal, steadfast, and patriotic.
Look at old photographs of the pioneers who built this country. Doesn't take much to imagine them at walmart at 2am.
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I like the idea of open carry. In my head it's a small town where everybody knows each other and a few guys are wearing pistols on their hips. Maybe uncle Buck has a shotgun in the rack of his pick-up truck. I'm not so crazy about the reality of being a cop patrolling through the ghetto, and now some shady looking guys are standing on the corner with AK47s. I'd prefer it be just like for cops... pistols on the hip are OK, but if a long gun is out that's a sign something is seriously wrong. If I'm honest with myself, that's how I feel.
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Those "shady looking guys" in the ghetto are going to have guns, no matter what the law is. Having them out in the open would help cops to know what they're up against.
And the law-abiding citizens who happen to live in "the ghetto" should have the same right the rest of us should to show the "shady looking guys" that they're not easy targets.
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I don't see how anyone walking around the ghetto, open carrying an AK helps the cops. It just causes problems. Seriously, I love the idea of everyone having the right to open carry whatever weapon they want. Like I said, in my Beaver Cleaver imaginary world, it works out great. I just feel like the reality of how open carry plays out will probably leave me with buyer’s remorse. It looks like we may find out though. I really hope I'm wrong about people. You know how cops get jaded, cynical and all.
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That damned Constitution!
What were those idiots thinking?
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Drop leg holsters! WHY DIDN'T I THINK OF THAT!!!
I have one for a Beretta M9 somewhere I cant use unless this passes! ???
An I like the ruger Blackhawk revolver idea in a cowboys rig...
But I can dream! Even if I cant build it like field of dreams an see it come!
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45 states already have open carry, it is past time we joined the modern world.
I will most likely not wear one openly, but a 1911 in a belt holster under an untucked shirt works for me.
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I don't see how anyone walking around the ghetto, open carrying an AK helps the cops. It just causes problems. Seriously, I love the idea of everyone having the right to open carry whatever weapon they want. Like I said, in my Beaver Cleaver imaginary world, it works out great. I just feel like the reality of how open carry plays out will probably leave me with buyer’s remorse. It looks like we may find out though. I really hope I'm wrong about people. You know how cops get jaded, cynical and all.
Making a cop's job easier is hardly a good reason to restrict constitutional rights. While I admire, respect, and support our police, making their job easier in those ways gets you the Gestapo.
Florida is one of only five states that currently prohibits open carry of handguns. Most of the open carry states also allow for the open carry of long guns. I haven't heard of any police getting drawn into pitched firefights in the "ghettos" of America. And that would surely draw huge national news attention. I think that you're seeing a problem that isn't there.
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BTW, there are 120,000 federal law enforcement officers, State and local police number 1.1 million (2008 DoJ numbers). Those numbers have probably increased.
In 2013, 76 officers died in the line of duty. Only 18 of those were shot. Most of the others died from accidents, predominantly car crashes. That's 18 out of approximately 1.3 million. Sorry if it sounds like I'm trivializing the deaths of brave police officers, but I think you're more likely to be struck by lightning than be gunned down as a cop.
As far as dangerous jobs in the US go, policework doesn't crack the top 10.
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I don't see how anyone walking around the ghetto, open carrying an AK helps the cops. It just causes problems. Seriously, I love the idea of everyone having the right to open carry whatever weapon they want. Like I said, in my Beaver Cleaver imaginary world, it works out great. I just feel like the reality of how open carry plays out will probably leave me with buyer’s remorse. It looks like we may find out though. I really hope I'm wrong about people. You know how cops get jaded, cynical and all.
Making a cop's job easier is hardly a good reason to restrict constitutional rights. While I admire, respect, and support our police, making their job easier in those ways gets you the Gestapo.
Florida is one of only five states that currently prohibits open carry of handguns. Most of the open carry states also allow for the open carry of long guns. I haven't heard of any police getting drawn into pitched firefights in the "ghettos" of America. And that would surely draw huge national news attention. I think that you're seeing a problem that isn't there.
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BTW, there are 120,000 federal law enforcement officers, State and local police number 1.1 million (2008 DoJ numbers). Those numbers have probably increased.
In 2013, 76 officers died in the line of duty. Only 18 of those were shot. Most of the others died from accidents, predominantly car crashes. That's 18 out of approximately 1.3 million. Sorry if it sounds like I'm trivializing the deaths of brave police officers, but I think you're more likely to be struck by lightning than be gunned down as a cop.
As far as dangerous jobs in the US go, policework doesn't crack the top 10.
This. I don't expect anything different in regards to police and criminal activity except maybe a drop in crime within that neighborhood if there neighbors are allowed to open carry. Criminals like simple easy targets...If they see granny has a .357 strapped on her hip, they will think twice.
I guarantee we will hear a few stories at the beginning of open carry if it passes. There's always a few that get to excited and forget handgun safety and end up shooting themselves or getting there gun taken away from them because they weren't actively practicing SA. Of course the media will blow these stories out of proportion, but it always happens when a state becomes a new Open Carry State.
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I don't see how anyone walking around the ghetto, open carrying an AK helps the cops. It just causes problems. Seriously, I love the idea of everyone having the right to open carry whatever weapon they want. Like I said, in my Beaver Cleaver imaginary world, it works out great. I just feel like the reality of how open carry plays out will probably leave me with buyer’s remorse. It looks like we may find out though. I really hope I'm wrong about people. You know how cops get jaded, cynical and all.
Making a cop's job easier is hardly a good reason to restrict constitutional rights. While I admire, respect, and support our police, making their job easier in those ways gets you the Gestapo.
Florida is one of only five states that currently prohibits open carry of handguns. Most of the open carry states also allow for the open carry of long guns. I haven't heard of any police getting drawn into pitched firefights in the "ghettos" of America. And that would surely draw huge national news attention. I think that you're seeing a problem that isn't there.
______________________
BTW, there are 120,000 federal law enforcement officers, State and local police number 1.1 million (2008 DoJ numbers). Those numbers have probably increased.
In 2013, 76 officers died in the line of duty. Only 18 of those were shot. Most of the others died from accidents, predominantly car crashes. That's 18 out of approximately 1.3 million. Sorry if it sounds like I'm trivializing the deaths of brave police officers, but I think you're more likely to be struck by lightning than be gunned down as a cop.
As far as dangerous jobs in the US go, policework doesn't crack the top 10.
Well, since this thread asked for people’s opinions, I gave mine. I support open carry of handguns, not rifles & shotguns. Like I said, if a rifle or shotgun is out, that should be a clear sign that something is seriously wrong. I'd prefer not to have people open carrying AKs at the bank or in Denny's. I just don't need that in my life. BTW, I've been shot on the job. This year alone, several of the officers I work with have survived shootings. Never struck by lightning though. I can tell already I'm going to need to stay out of the opinion section here. It seems I have a slightly different perspective on some issues than many members. I'll just stick to the meet-ups and survival training and we'll all get along just fine.
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I grew up here with open carry.... no problems then.
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The reason given for this is so that those with a CWP wouldn't be arrested for brandishing a weapon if someone saw their weapon. Yes I'd like to see it passed so I wouldn't have to worry about being busted by some zealot with an ax to grind.
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In Florida it is not called "brandishing", but "improper exhibition". There is a difference. If you are in Targetmart and you reach for the can of salmon on the top shelf and your shirt lifts up, revealing your concealed firearm to Susie Homemaker, she may not like it, but it's not illegal. Now if she starts screaming at you about it and you look at her and lift your shirt to make a point that you have a gun, THAT is illegal. Read the state statute below:
790.10 Improper exhibition of dangerous weapons or firearms.—If any person having or carrying any dirk, sword, sword cane, firearm, electric weapon or device, or other weapon shall, in the presence of one or more persons, exhibit the same in a rude, careless, angry, or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense, the person so offending shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.
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I would like it to pass.
If so I could carry outside the waistband, seen or printing like no tomorrow without a care .
An if it would pass I would think more on getting a RIA 45 cal 1911, & attempt toting that. :-)
Printing is not illegal in Florida, even though a lot of people think it is. Of course, wearing a skin-tight white t-shirt over your 1911 could possibly fall under the "improper exhibition" statute (see my previous post). See the definition of concealed in the state statute:
790.001 Definitions.—As used in this chapter, except where the context otherwise requires:
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(3)(a) “Concealed weapon” means any dirk, metallic knuckles, slungshot, billie, tear gas gun, chemical weapon or device, or other deadly weapon carried on or about a person in such a manner as to conceal the weapon from the ordinary sight of another person.
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I'd rather have carry on campus than open carry.
If this passes I will still conceal, not really interested in attracting unwanted attention.
I agree. No offense to anyone who disagrees, but why would anyone want to open carry? When trouble starts, who do you think is going to be the first target? I would much rather have the element of surprise on my side. Plus, any privately-owned establishment will still be able to set their own rules banning guns. If you open carry, you can't go in... not saying that anyone would go in if they were carrying concealed. :-\
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I think it's a step in the right direction. Who was it that said "An armed society is a polite society."?
Nat, that was Robert A Heinlein. His full quote is, "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
Incidentally, Robert Heinlein wrote the quote I use in my signature line, the one about bread and circuses. He had a lot of good quotes.
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OK, one more post... Is this a step in the right direction? I don't know. Without thinking it all the way through it would seem so. But I always think about the Law of Unintended Consequences. I live in Sanford, where a couple of years ago there were rallies against George Zimmerman. A lot of out-of-towners showed up to make themselves heard. Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson were here, of course. The New Black Panther Party was well represented. There was also a neo-Nazi group that showed up. I remember sitting with City Girl at a sidewalk table of a local restaurant on a Saturday morning and one of the Nazis walked past. Thankfully, there was no trouble, but we were all expecting it.
Now if this law passes, we could see the New Black Panther Party and the Skinheads walking around with exposed weapons. Don't misunderstand, I am not equating most citizens with these hate groups. And most of the people who would open carry are law abiding citizens. But open carry would kind of take away the whole "improper exhibition" clause in the state statutes. I think the law that prohibits firearms carriers from making implied threats is important.
I know I'm rambling, and I admit I haven't thought this completely through. My opinions are subject to change. But there is one thing I'm 100% sure of... just because you CAN do something doesn't mean that you SHOULD do it. If this law passes, I will maintain my element of surprise and will not open carry...
... that is, if I ever do own a gun.
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The reason given for this is so that those with a CWP wouldn't be arrested for brandishing a weapon if someone saw their weapon. Yes I'd like to see it passed so I wouldn't have to worry about being busted by some zealot with an ax to grind.
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In Florida it is not called "brandishing", but "improper exhibition". There is a difference. If you are in Targetmart and you reach for the can of salmon on the top shelf and your shirt lifts up, revealing your concealed firearm to Susie Homemaker, she may not like it, but it's not illegal. Now if she starts screaming at you about it and you look at her and lift your shirt to make a point that you have a gun, THAT is illegal. Read the state statute below:
790.10 Improper exhibition of dangerous weapons or firearms.—If any person having or carrying any dirk, sword, sword cane, firearm, electric weapon or device, or other weapon shall, in the presence of one or more persons, exhibit the same in a rude, careless, angry, or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense, the person so offending shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.
790.053 Open carrying of weapons.—
(1) Except as otherwise provided by law and in subsection (2), it is unlawful for any person to openly carry on or about his or her person any firearm or electric weapon or device. It is not a violation of this section for a person licensed to carry a concealed firearm as provided in s. 790.06(1), and who is lawfully carrying a firearm in a concealed manner, to briefly and openly display the firearm to the ordinary sight of another person, unless the firearm is intentionally displayed in an angry or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense.
(2) A person may openly carry, for purposes of lawful self-defense:
(a) A self-defense chemical spray.
(b) A nonlethal stun gun or dart-firing stun gun or other nonlethal electric weapon or device that is designed solely for defensive purposes.
(3) Any person violating this section commits a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.
In other words, printing or an unintentional "Peek-a-boo" of a weapon for a CCW holder is legal.
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Fat Slacker, I remember when they passed that. It was just a couple of years ago. It's good legislation. It prevents law-abiding citizens from ecoming criminals through no fault of their own.
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Fat Slacker, I remember when they passed that. It was just a couple of years ago. It's good legislation. It prevents law-abiding citizens from ecoming criminals through no fault of their own.
Unfortunately it hasnt worked out like that.
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FS,
You know me, so I will shoot from the hip :D (see what I did there?)
As to opinions..... I welcome anyone to state theirs as long as they understand I will probably state mine. We might disagree. Heck, we might argue and fight. But that doesn't mean we cant be friends or help each other prep.
And it doesn't mean either of us is necessarily wrong. We are just coming from a different place.
There are a few folks on here that I have had wars with concerning politics and LEO hate biased posting. But I would help each of them if I could, and I don't hold their different pov against them. And even if we are warring in one thread or section, I can easily speak with them elsewhere about other prepping issues without being angry at them for,not agreeing with me on the one topic.
Just my take on this thing.
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Well said Myakka. Just because there are different opinions on certain topics it doesn't mean one or two people have to stop communicating with the group. I read many individuals posts and if I don't agree with the various views posted I just don't put my opinion in that particular topic. But I will continue to give any ideas or such in another area. :)
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I disagree with all of you, even those of you who agree with me!
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I disagree with all of you, even those of you who agree with me!
Don't worry Ex........... no one does. :o
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i lived in NC for 10 years and they have open carry.. i still conceled carry and only open carried a few instances.. my personal preferance is conceled as stated by EX earlier in the thread.. element of suprise.. altho open carry does has its benifits under certain circumstances IMO i cant see doing it all the time.. or if any.. BUT still a good thing to have on the books...
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My opinion,I'm all for it,and with no ccw requirerment....works in other states.
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I don't see how anyone walking around the ghetto, open carrying an AK helps the cops. It just causes problems. Seriously, I love the idea of everyone having the right to open carry whatever weapon they want. Like I said, in my Beaver Cleaver imaginary world, it works out great. I just feel like the reality of how open carry plays out will probably leave me with buyer’s remorse. It looks like we may find out though. I really hope I'm wrong about people. You know how cops get jaded, cynical and all.
Making a cop's job easier is hardly a good reason to restrict constitutional rights. While I admire, respect, and support our police, making their job easier in those ways gets you the Gestapo.
Florida is one of only five states that currently prohibits open carry of handguns. Most of the open carry states also allow for the open carry of long guns. I haven't heard of any police getting drawn into pitched firefights in the "ghettos" of America. And that would surely draw huge national news attention. I think that you're seeing a problem that isn't there.
______________________
BTW, there are 120,000 federal law enforcement officers, State and local police number 1.1 million (2008 DoJ numbers). Those numbers have probably increased.
In 2013, 76 officers died in the line of duty. Only 18 of those were shot. Most of the others died from accidents, predominantly car crashes. That's 18 out of approximately 1.3 million. Sorry if it sounds like I'm trivializing the deaths of brave police officers, but I think you're more likely to be struck by lightning than be gunned down as a cop.
As far as dangerous jobs in the US go, policework doesn't crack the top 10.
Well, since this thread asked for people’s opinions, I gave mine. I support open carry of handguns, not rifles & shotguns. Like I said, if a rifle or shotgun is out, that should be a clear sign that something is seriously wrong. I'd prefer not to have people open carrying AKs at the bank or in Denny's. I just don't need that in my life. BTW, I've been shot on the job. This year alone, several of the officers I work with have survived shootings. Never struck by lightning though. I can tell already I'm going to need to stay out of the opinion section here. It seems I have a slightly different perspective on some issues than many members. I'll just stick to the meet-ups and survival training and we'll all get along just fine.
Hey, I'm not trying to shut you down. Please, keep giving your opinion. You have been very civil about it and I hope that I have been in response.
This is a discussion board. It's better when we all give our own perspectives. Just because I disagree with your view on one particular subject doesn't mean that I have any personal animosity toward you, just a different opinion. It's not necessarily better or worse than yours, just different.
I do find 2nd Amendment issues to be important, so I feel it's important for us to discuss them. If you're up to a spirited, respectful discussion on the subject of open carry of long guns, I would like to explore your viewpoint a bit more.
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Open Carry is not a good idea, and it does nothing to improve your self protection over concealed carry.
As stated before accidental display has been on the books for a little while now so open carry does nothing but give a bunch of scum bags a way to open carry.
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I used to enjoy being a scumbag, of course, we didnt know we were scumbags back then.
Its amazing how no one.... ahh, nevermind...
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I don't see how anyone walking around the ghetto, open carrying an AK helps the cops. It just causes problems. Seriously, I love the idea of everyone having the right to open carry whatever weapon they want. Like I said, in my Beaver Cleaver imaginary world, it works out great. I just feel like the reality of how open carry plays out will probably leave me with buyer’s remorse. It looks like we may find out though. I really hope I'm wrong about people. You know how cops get jaded, cynical and all.
Making a cop's job easier is hardly a good reason to restrict constitutional rights. While I admire, respect, and support our police, making their job easier in those ways gets you the Gestapo.
Florida is one of only five states that currently prohibits open carry of handguns. Most of the open carry states also allow for the open carry of long guns. I haven't heard of any police getting drawn into pitched firefights in the "ghettos" of America. And that would surely draw huge national news attention. I think that you're seeing a problem that isn't there.
______________________
BTW, there are 120,000 federal law enforcement officers, State and local police number 1.1 million (2008 DoJ numbers). Those numbers have probably increased.
In 2013, 76 officers died in the line of duty. Only 18 of those were shot. Most of the others died from accidents, predominantly car crashes. That's 18 out of approximately 1.3 million. Sorry if it sounds like I'm trivializing the deaths of brave police officers, but I think you're more likely to be struck by lightning than be gunned down as a cop.
As far as dangerous jobs in the US go, policework doesn't crack the top 10.
Well, since this thread asked for people’s opinions, I gave mine. I support open carry of handguns, not rifles & shotguns. Like I said, if a rifle or shotgun is out, that should be a clear sign that something is seriously wrong. I'd prefer not to have people open carrying AKs at the bank or in Denny's. I just don't need that in my life. BTW, I've been shot on the job. This year alone, several of the officers I work with have survived shootings. Never struck by lightning though. I can tell already I'm going to need to stay out of the opinion section here. It seems I have a slightly different perspective on some issues than many members. I'll just stick to the meet-ups and survival training and we'll all get along just fine.
Hey, I'm not trying to shut you down. Please, keep giving your opinion. You have been very civil about it and I hope that I have been in response.
This is a discussion board. It's better when we all give our own perspectives. Just because I disagree with your view on one particular subject doesn't mean that I have any personal animosity toward you, just a different opinion. It's not necessarily better or worse than yours, just different.
I do find 2nd Amendment issues to be important, so I feel it's important for us to discuss them. If you're up to a spirited, respectful discussion on the subject of open carry of long guns, I would like to explore your viewpoint a bit more.
No offense to you. I've been around long enough to know better, and should never have waded in to begin with. In my head we were just going to state our view points, accept others and move on. It never plays out like that in reality. Topics such as abortion, race issues, drugs, the rebel flag, gun rights, sexuality, immigration, ect, tend to polarize people. People (Fat-Slacker) have very strong opinions, get defensive over these types of issues, and even heated towards others who don’t share their view. Each (Fat Slacker) feels they are right and the other wrong and they must show them the light or demonstrate how the other is ruining the world with their view-point. You never reach a moment in the conversation where one has changed the others (Fat-Slacker's) mind. I’m not above any of those feelings myself, so I’ve found it’s best for me to stay out of those types of “discussions” and just stick to simply working on survival skills. That’s what I’m here to do anyhow and we‘ll all get along just fine that way. In other words, Fat Slacker is very bull-headed, and it's best he doesn't go down this road, lest people's feelings get hurt and they (Fat-Slacker)are banned. You are watching Fat-Slacker police himself here. Please just let it be.
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^^^ Well stated, sir.
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Truth. Im reminded of an analogy concerning this. If you go to a crowded movie theater where everyone is seated and watching quietly and you are the only one in there with your phone going off every 5 seconds, talking loudly or otherwise sticking out, the mob will let you know that you don't belong. Flip the script and be the only quiet one in a noisy theater trying to get the mob to be quiet. The two outcomes are the same.
As far as people getting their feelings hurt by text on a flickering screen I'm not gonna lie, I've been that one dude in both of the movie theater scenarios before. But when folks can triage the importance of whats being percieved in the environment and discussions they choose to be a part of, you will find folks who are less angry.
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No offense to you. I've been around long enough to know better, and should never have waded in to begin with. In my head we were just going to state our view points, accept others and move on. It never plays out like that in reality. Topics such as abortion, race issues, drugs, the rebel flag, gun rights, sexuality, immigration, ect, tend to polarize people. People (Fat-Slacker) have very strong opinions, get defensive over these types of issues, and even heated towards others who don’t share their view. Each (Fat Slacker) feels they are right and the other wrong and they must show them the light or demonstrate how the other is ruining the world with their view-point. You never reach a moment in the conversation where one has changed the others (Fat-Slacker's) mind. I’m not above any of those feelings myself, so I’ve found it’s best for me to stay out of those types of “discussions” and just stick to simply working on survival skills. That’s what I’m here to do anyhow and we‘ll all get along just fine that way. In other words, Fat Slacker is very bull-headed, and it's best he doesn't go down this road, lest people's feelings get hurt and they (Fat-Slacker)are banned. You are watching Fat-Slacker police himself here. Please just let it be.
Okay. Those guys (Wrenchbender) will leave it be then. Pax.
Oh, and keep posting on whatever catches your interest here. We need to keep this forum going!
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Deal. ;)
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F.S. if I may share my opinion
I would like having a brandished rifle in my truck on say my dash or rear window secured of course and loaded, but I wouldn't tote it shopping for ?idnk? Maybe my groceries or in a mall....
An imo you seem like if we were licencedd to carry it would be alright. I think a cheaper alternative is a background renewal card you keep between firearms purchases like uh hunting license, but with your Drivers license number included, thats logged with the DMV or separate office , an Generally speaking says you were Allowed to purchase last time henceforth you might be carrying per say
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Wow... ALLOWED.... Im.... wow...
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Its about 8$ for a background check, the receipt could have certain information, AND that clears the person to go somewhere with a "pistol/ rifle"
Were to be innocent till PROVEN guilty.
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Open carry is nothing new in Florida.
When I was a kid it was legal without any BS permit.
When something needs a permit required by the Government it is no longer a right,but a privilege granted by said Government.
Matt
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Open carry is nothing new in Florida.
When I was a kid it was legal without any BS permit.
When something needs a permit required by the Government it is no longer a right,but a privilege granted by said Government.
Matt
Finally!!!!!!!
For once I didnt have to say it!
Its amazing how even so-called gun rights folks have been conditioned to accept such nonsense.
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your starting to see some of the states going back to that very concept of natural right... i believe Maine just passed a law that allows open carry without a permit... seems like things will come full circle.. hopefully...
but i do agree the conditioning is and has been established by the government an encouraged by the media so the agenda/debate is not focused on invoking the natural RIGHT to bear arms but setting the debate on the legality of the right to bear arms... I myself understand the concept of a natural right as i like most the members here lived a time when it was common to see my grandfather carry a pistol on his small 10acre ranch/homestead and in town in Ca, of all places... yes California...
i too have been found guilty of joining the debate as a focal point but it seems that for now is where the U.S as a country is headed... the NRA, GOA and all of the supposedly good guys also are heading in that direction... but if you think about it our kids growing up these days have only seen 1st hand the debate for the legality to bear arms.. (government permits etc etc...) so the concept is slowly changing at the generational level...
if not for the efforts of us as parents and grand parents to educate them all will be lost and we are a smaller minority each day, week, month and year...